BigDaddy Banned, Now Johnny Banned
Ok … I rarley ban anybody … but the time has come for the first ban. BigDaddy is getting banned. I’m not going to get into why but if you have been on the blog for any lenght of time you know already. He was warned. He didn’t listen. I guess it’s a big deal for a troll to get his own blog post about being banned. But he earned it. At least we won’t hear from him again momentarily … I just wrote the tech guys … I can’t find the ban button in the new wordpress but as soon as I do he’s a gonner.
Also, I’ve been catching up on office and paperwork and taxes over the last week so I haven’t had time to blog. But I’ll be back and in full effect next week. Meanwhile stay tuned to the list … there is giant annoucment coming tomorrow.
-m
ps Also just banned Johnny … same reason … instead of leaving things alone he HAS TO reply to every flame he provokes. This creates more bs. I welcome them as customers, if they ever actually become customers, but they are not good for the blog.
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January 20th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Let me be the first to say THANK YOU!
It was getting pretty ridiculous lately.
And Mehow, why no e-book release for the 10SSA??
January 21st, 2009 at 1:51 am
Hey Mehow… is Mehow your real name?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:44 am
Yes it is my real name. -m
January 21st, 2009 at 10:09 am
Great news!
Bye, bye Big Daddy.
January 21st, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Mehow,
HOw much and waht wil be missed by notattending the 10SSA weekend for those who purchased the product? I know we’ll get the DVD, but will that be covering everything?
January 21st, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Why would you ban Big Daddy??
Bad form, Mehow, bad form!!!!!
January 21st, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Thank you. It was getting real annoying!
Personally, you should cannot go into another person’s domain and shit on his carpet without being asked to leave. Websites, blogs, etc are really no different.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:40 pm
The reason Big Daddy was banned was not because he didn’t have good content.
But because:
a) he watered down half half of his quality content posts with stuff like “Big Daddy’s ASSemblyTM Line is the best pickup technology ever invented, because, see its not even a technology … its a presence” which then caused him to get a ton of flames.
b) Then he replied to every flame thrown his way.
What this resulted in was endless flamewars between bd and his fans/haters that filled every blog post making the real content extremely difficult to find. Nobody really wants to toil through endless miles of “Big Daddy levitates bitches with his mind.” to find the content.
Chuck,
You should be at the conference. Although I’m shooting for getting all of it on the 8 DVDs not everything will make it.
-m
January 21st, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Thanks Mehow. What pissed me off about him was he said “PUAs sucked”, blah blah. Then he blatantly stole stuff and claimed it as his own. “No man is kind to his debtors,” as the saying goes. His kiss close was stolen directly from Toe Cutter, that’s the “Tic Tac kiss close”. He changed out jolly rancher for tic tacs, oh my god! The man’s a genius! I use gum, if she doesn’t take it, you can neg her. “No seriously, you need this.” I now have my own method….
Anyway, looking forward to the product. I may have missed it, what’s all the conference details? I know the long list of “Who’s Who” in the line-up, but the when/where I don’t know.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Wow, looks like Big Daddy really made an impact and exposed the “reactors” on this board. If youre this reactive to a guy on a forum, I can only imagine how you are in set
Mehow, check your email..
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:51 am
Hey Mehow, are 10ssa subscribers going to be notified soon with the details of the conference. Im planning on heading out from sydney australia and would like some more info on it before i start booking flights and accommodation.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:12 am
“Wow, looks like Big Daddy really made an impact and exposed the “reactors” on this board. If youre this reactive to a guy on a forum, I can only imagine how you are in set
Mehow, check your email..”
You’re the other douche-bag that should have been banned a long time ago.
You actually insult Mehow on another forum you two-faced coward.
January 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 am
Just listened to the sound bites that came to me yesterday.
This stuff is awesome Mehow.
I have already started implementing some of the stuff at work and I can see results. I have a hot coworker who gets embarased when I am talking to her. Maybe it’s because I am a natural edgy guy.
Anyway, most probably I wont come to the conference cause it costs a fortune for me to fly there. I know you’ll try your best to cover as many things as possible.
Thanks again
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
Johnny should have been banned, but he’s not that annoying. His posts are short. I can scroll past them. He’s s obviously full of shit and such an obvious troller that he’s just not worthy of banning. He claims he has epic inner game, but can’t stay in set longer than 10 minutes. He claims to get 4 lays a month, but he doesn’t do SNLs and can’t set up day 2s for shit. He claims to have gone to a PUA bootcamp w/ infield training, (at the lowest, that’s about 2500 dollars), but can’t afford his own place. Did his mom pay for the bootcamp? He claims he doesn’t know how to write a field report after spending years in the community. Oh yeah, and he was never going to post to a PUA board again.
His inconsistencies and shitty advice mark him as an obvious liar/troll, but that’s okay. His posts are short, you can get past them. My Bitches posts, on the other hand, were long. It took forever to get to the actual content. And I fucking hate people that thieve, My Bitch was a thief. Plain and simple, he took other people’s ideas and passed them off as his own without due credit. He’s the Carlos Mencia of Pickup.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
“He’s the Carlos Mencia of Pickup”
Lol.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
U Know Viva Las Vegas, I love it there so much that Im always looking for excuses to comeback.
I get to go to Vegas and from there, Im flying to Florida for spring break. Hell ya
But hey I c there will be a few guys going to Vegas for this conference, Im going because this wont be a regular bootcamp, so it should be good. Hey Fellas Im sure you guys know that Vegas can be expensive, rooms, cabs and even clubs, although I have the ultimate scheme to get into most popular Vegas Clubs w/ complimentary admission, especially now with the reccession and all, lol
but why dont we try to at least kind of formulate rooms with each other, the cost will be cheaper and cab fares can be split. Thats a thought. I think its best to make a trip like this as cheap as possible so If any one interested, holla.
Neo
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Mehow thanks for taking out the trash, it was starting to pile up.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Neo, good idea
Where do you think we should stay?
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:37 pm
““Wow, looks like Big Daddy really made an impact and exposed the “reactors” on this board. If youre this reactive to a guy on a forum, I can only imagine how you are in set
Mehow, check your email..”
You’re the other douche-bag that should have been banned a long time ago.
You actually insult Mehow on another forum you two-faced coward.”
Dude, relax. I actually like Mehow and his products. I’d recommend him any day over clowns like Lovesystems and RSD
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Where do you think we should stay?
To any one going to Vegas: Whenever I go over to Vegas, I always stay at the Palms, I love it there because its sick, hot girls youll run into celebrities as well. One thing about me: I love gaming celebrity females, brings out the best in me: ask the Kardashian Sisters lmfao
My choices though as far as Hotels that a reasonable amount of guys could stay at like a
Project Vegas style and really keep hundreds in the their pocket is
Palms Place Resort- Theres two sides, the condo side is cool, like 8 guys can fit in that room
its great because youll rarely ever be in the room anyway .
They have One bedroom suites, that include a living room with a pull out couch- and king sized bed in the liveng room. If 8 guys share that it would cost about 50 bucks a head. You cant beat that.
Hard Rock- Really cool, young crowd, you can definatly run into some hot young girls as well as some celeb women. Club Body English is there.
Venitian- another Sick spot that preety cool
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
To some of you 8 guys may sound like alot but with 2 days of seminar that would probably run about 7-8 hours a day, 2 hours of free time for tha night to get showered and then dinner and then off to the club, and heck maybe even off to after hours and strip clubs, you dont want to spend over a hundred bucks just to store your shit. I’d rather spend 50 bucks and in a fucking sick ass hotel.
Think about it for a sec
Neo
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Is it just a seminar or will there be “in field” action as well?
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Hell, anywhere in Vegas is great to stay (except Circus Circus hahaha)
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:57 pm
“Hey Neo, if you pay my share of the room and throw me a few hundred dollars I’ll give you a bootcamp in-field. Yes, thats right. Only a few hundred dollars to learn from THE best, Johnny”
O shit lmfao, Hey Johnny I thought I already learned from the best ” Your MOM” No infeild nessecary, she gave me a private 1on1. Now I know she SWALLOWS, sooo im guessing you do too. Like Mother like Son.. huh
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:02 pm
When is this conference? March 7th?
Maybe I’ll sneak in
. But Neo, I’m not rooming with you if you’re a weirdo. You must be an MPUA.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Yea Im an MPUA,
But Johnny, Im not sure if you’ll b attending the right conference. The flaming FLUFFERS
convention is on the other side of the strip. Dont get your self too confused, little man.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
hahaha
An MPUA = weirdo
Is it March 7th? That would be perfect and a really inexpensive trip. Is it just a seminar only because as much as I would like to, I dont want to go into a Mehow bootcamp in-field and do anything stupid
but I’m always down for Vegas!
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Whats your type of game, Neo?
I’ve been going direct to the extreme as of late.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:21 pm
“Dude, relax. I actually like Mehow and his products. ”
I’m chill bro…and you….are a douche bag.
If you liked Mehow and his products, you wouldn’t have trashed him on
Barry Kirkeys forum.
Mehow…..just for you info….Johnny is trolling hardcore. He’s good at
it. AND….he’s secretly mocking you by pretending to be into you whilst
trolling.
Can’t you see his game? It’s transparent as heck to me.
See the blog is already going down in quality because of Johnny.
Just ditch the douche….he offers no value. End of story.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:31 pm
EVERYONE gets made fun of on Barry’s forum. Even Barry gets hammered on his OWN forum. Its comedy.
I actually do like Mehow and his products. I am going to buy his 10SSA product and attend the conference in Vegas. I am not trolling at all. My game is very similar to Mehow’s and I think he offers more value than most of the clowns out there.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Anyone staying at the Hilton? Only 99 a night, a bit off strip but easy walk to the monorail station – Looking for a group of cool guys to chill with, maybe hit up one of the Buffets for foodp or some bars. Not trying to go crazy all out both nights because I don’t want to be all tired and hungover during the conference, if ur thinking the same post here.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:28 pm
hahaha
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Anyone staying at the Hilton? Only 99 a night, a bit off strip but easy walk to the monorail station – Looking for a group of cool guys to chill with, maybe hit up one of the Buffets for foodp or some bars. Not trying to go crazy all out both nights because I don’t want to be all tired and hungover during the conference, if ur thinking the same post here.
I want to be a little closer to the action
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Hey Zirc,
I am interested in your idea of staying at the Hilton. I am interested in going a little, but not gung-ho gonzo.
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:32 pm
CPowles writes:
I wanted to start a discussion on something. When I approach people and groups, anywhere, there is a make-or-break moment. It occurs anywhere from the moment I walk up to 15 minutes into it, and this is when they are HOOKED.
Some sets you can walk up to, and they’re so happy to have a fresh face and new conversation, that you are IN already. Others, you have to demonstrate some value first. Others, you have to find a commonality. Others, it’s just enough to be different from all the other guys who approach. And others take a lot of work and maneuvering. And still others, you can talk to for a while, but can’t hook. They listen, but they don’t BITE.
So my question is: for other guys who sarge, are you AWARE of this hook point. To me, the game can’t really start you are IN. And it’s a great feeling. It’s what I do it for. And you never know when you approach where that hook point will be: instant or never.
I think my point is that in my experience, this is the most difficult part of a PU. Opening is easy. And closing is easy, because you have the tactics here to get past the roadblocks. It’s this dangerous border between being on the OUTSIDE and the INSIDE that makes or breaks a PU for me.
Does anyone else have experience or thoughts on this? It’s a new idea for me, so I’m probably stating it poorly. But I’d like to flesh it out further to find some clarity on it and techniques for it.
CPowles
———————————–
Formhandle responds with Cpowles in quotes:
>Formhandle and a few others
>here discuss internal beliefs.
I didn’t know you were referring to basically when the entire group pivots their attention on you, rather than just interested in you (accepted). There’s a difference. In a group of 15 people who already know each other, each of those people is ACCEPTED to the group without necessarily having attention PIVOTED on them. As an outsider to a group, you can get accepted without having pivoted their attention. Accepted could sound like what it means or it could simply be non-rejection.
1. Rejection
2. Non-rejection (pseudo-accept)
3. Accepted
4. Pivoted
People already accepted into a group can jump back-and-forth between accepted-pivoted. The “hook point”, as you describe it better now, is only reached when you get the group pivoted on you. Having that level of accepted for an extended time (>2 minutes) will provide you enough social proof to gain the type of interest in your target that you want.
>IMHO, this
>has NOTHING to do with this.
Well, now I know what you’re talking about. But it’s still important to have the internal part going on. With it, the ability to reach the pivot stage (”hook point”) becomes much easier.
>It is a separate thing
>entirely. IOW, you
>may approach a girl who is
>waiting for her fiance. She
>will listen to
>you, but not get too INTO what
>you are saying because she is
>waiting
>for her fiance and doesn’t
>want to appear like she may be
>talking with
>or flirting with another man.
>Here, no matter what your
>belief is, she
>can be OPENED but not HOOKED.
She can be hooked if you don’t go out of your way to specifically hook her. But she can’t probably be closed in the normal way.
>I can’t think of any other way
>to describe it, but I just
>palpably
>FEEL that moment when the
>sarge turns around.
OK, I thought you were referring originally to that feeling and not necessarily in regards to the actual pivoting of the entire group’s attention (or at least most of the group). Entertainers do this, partially because it’s their platform to do so, but also because they experience that sort of attention so regularly that they know how to re-create it in any social dynamic. For example, my brother is a magician but he doesn’t tend to care much to be the center of attention unless he feels like doing a display of close-up magic. Once he gets in that mode, he knows EXACTLY what to say and do in order to pivot a group’s attention, and to also pseudo-manipulate specific people’s attention in specific ways to maximize the “performance”. I have no idea why he doesn’t use it for PU – he tends to be a 1-GF-at-a-time guy.
>And
>instead of me trying
>to stay in the set, they are
>trying to KEEP me there. The
>pursuer
>becomes the pursued.
I do this conversationally, but find it a bit draining. Perhaps it’s my personality type or it’s that I don’t like entertaining people to get just one person’s attention, unless I’m talking about things I like to talk about.
>I guess I am thinking about
>the hook point because it is
>the part of
>the sarge that is the MOST out
>of my control. IOW, opening is
>just an
>internal thing–it’s a matter
>of confidence.
That is the aspect I was referring to originally, as my impression has been from myself and others that the opening is the sticking point. And, once I get past that, I am a natural “pivoter”, I know how to be the center of attention if that’s what I choose. Sometimes in a “controlling the convo” way, sometimes in the way you describe (”hook point”).
>LMR too is a matter of
>playing the game right. But
>the hook point is random.
It doesn’t have to be. This is why a lot of times it’s BETTER to not just go into a set of people and force your agenda of entertainment on them after the opener, but rather calibrate the group’s topical interest fist THEN apply yourself to THAT topic in a dynamic way, enough to cause a pivoting of attention. Sure, some in the group who know more about the topic than you do might think “what a buffoon”, but that’s of less importance than your ability to display that you can pivot the attention of the group or essentially, “take it over”.
This is why most people hate mimes, but love clowns.
>We all know it:
>we approach a set not knowing
>whether they’re going to be
>totally
>closed off to strangers or
>bored shitless waiting for a
>man they can
>pounce on. A good PUA can hook
>MORE sets, but still not every
>one.
Nobody can hook or even open all sets. But, even being receptive to sets willing to be opened on, and overriding the group with your own agenda isn’t the best option. Groups have to be calibrated quickly and rapport has to be build before attention is pivoted on you. Otherwise, you’re destroying your REAL chance at the hook point.
>I think it’s something to be
>aware of because BEFORE the
>hook point I
>used different game (just
>demonstrating value). AFTER
>the hook point,
>the attraction/seduction phase
>can begin.
I have no idea what your exact method id, but if you wing with Mystery a lot then I can guess you probably use his entertainment style on groups. That won’t always get the attention pivoted on you in a good way. You have to quickly calibrate the majority of the group before changing over from opener to attention pivoting. Otherwise, you’ll just be blindly entertaining the group like a mime, where all they want to do is get rid of you and that vibe can be felt. If, however, you calibrate the group, and determine a base of rapport first, you’ll know what direction to move things in and have a better chance at getting to a hook point. It will mean a longer sarge, and less “intensity/abruptness” initially, but once you’re in the “acceptance” stage, you can move on from there to a SOLID hook point. In fact, if you’re both a good conversationalist and dynamic communicator with good PU skills, the hook point is actually easy from that stage of acceptance. That can be proven just by watching most groups communicating to each other for extended times. They’re all in the acceptance stage, and every now & then one of them gets that hook point pivoted on them. Then it shifts to another person. It’s the NATURAL form of communication between groups of people who’ve accepted each other. For guys who are not such good conversationalists, event THEIR opportunity will come within that group if they can at least get to the acceptance stage. Whether they capitalize or not is dependant on their goals and skills.
>Thanks for helping me think
>this through. I’ll post more
>once I’ve
>better formulated this…
Maybe I gave you some good points to think about this time, now that I understood what you were really talking about…
——————————————————-
Cpowles responds:
>Style wrote:
>
>I didn’t know you were referring to basically when the entire group pivots
>their attention on you, rather than just interested in you (accepted). There’s
>a difference. In a group of 15 people who already know each other, each of
>those people is ACCEPTED to the group without necessarily having attention
>PIVOTED on them. As an outsider to a group, you can get accepted without
>having pivoted their attention. Accepted could sound like what it means or it
>could simply be non-rejection.
>
>1. Rejection
>2. Non-rejection (pseudo-accept)
>3. Accepted
>4. Pivoted
>
>People already accepted into a group can jump back-and-forth between
>accepted-pivoted. The “hook point”, as you describe it better now, is only
>reached when you get the group pivoted on you. Having that level of accepted
>for an extended time (>2 minutes) will provide you enough social proof to gain
>the type of interest in your target that you want.
Exactly! That is it!!
>Well, now I know what you’re talking about. But it’s still important to have
>the internal part going on. With it, the ability to reach the pivot stage
>(”hook point”) becomes much easier.
True. Not only that, but your ability to STAY in the set without
ejecting yoruself and confidently work towards the
pivot-stage/hook-point is increased.
>OK, I thought you were referring originally to that feeling and not necessarily
>in regards to the actual pivoting of the entire group’s attention (or at least
>most of the group). Entertainers do this, partially because it’s their
>platform to do so, but also because they experience that sort of attention so
>regularly that they know how to re-create it in any social dynamic. For
>example, my brother is a magician but he doesn’t tend to care much to be the
>center of attention unless he feels like doing a display of close-up magic.
>Once he gets in that mode, he knows EXACTLY what to say and do in order to
>pivot a group’s attention, and to also pseudo-manipulate specific people’s
>attention in specific ways to maximize the “performance”. I have no idea why
>he doesn’t use it for PU – he tends to be a 1-GF-at-a-time guy.
Hey, that’s interesting. I see a lot of magicians where I live, many
trying to do PU wrong by doing things like setting waitresses wallets
on fire. But I bet he would be good. If not, someone to model in
certain ways. Ha, also explains some of your thoughts on Mystery,
since it’s close-up magic also though probably a bit different. (I
tend to use the attitude, and at most one piece of magic if any (but
it’s almost ALWAYS linked to an attraction move). But it’s a good
skill set just to have in your back pocket in case it’s required.)
>I do this conversationally, but find it a bit draining. Perhaps it’s my
>personality type or it’s that I don’t like entertaining people to get just one
>person’s attention, unless I’m talking about things I like to talk about.
Ha, but you will like “entertaining” people when a whole group is
loving you and two hot hot well-endowed storeclerks (9.5s) are saying,
“We want to lock the door to keep you here” (as happened with us a
couple days ago). Sometimes that is an end in itself: you meet cool
people (guys and girls) who add to your life and experience in other
ways. I mean, that is the definition of being social. It is fun to be
social.
>That is the aspect I was referring to originally, as my impression has been
>from myself and others that the opening is the sticking point. And, once I get
>past that, I am a natural “pivoter”, I know how to be the center of attention
>if that’s what I choose. Sometimes in a “controlling the convo” way, sometimes
>in the way you describe (”hook point”).
True. But sometimes a set just does not HOOK (it’s out of your
control). It just so happens that when you are in a good mood and
state, you do not care and bounce on to the next set.
>
>It doesn’t have to be. This is why a lot of times it’s BETTER to not just go
>into a set of people and force your agenda of entertainment on them after the
>opener, but rather calibrate the group’s topical interest fist THEN apply
>yourself to THAT topic in a dynamic way, enough to cause a pivoting of
>attention. Sure, some in the group who know more about the topic than you do
>might think “what a buffoon”, but that’s of less importance than your ability
>to display that you can pivot the attention of the group or essentially, “take
>it over”.
No one ever thinks “what a buffoon” when I’m speaking, I hope. That
said, I agree, Calibrate. Lets discuss Paps. He used to just do
entertaining routines, one after another. Now he has snapped and
become a geniuely interesting and engaging human being. The point, for
me, of asking, “How do you all know each other?” after the opener is
to calibrate and see what is required to do/discuss next.
That said, the HOOK POINT has NOTHING to do with ENTERTAINING. Every
sarge has one, whatever you are doing. It is the point where you are
IN. Entertaining is just one way to get in, and not even the best. I
think you may be carrying over the convo from the Mystery threads. But
anyway it’s clear that you and others are aware of this.
>
>Nobody can hook or even open all sets. But, even being receptive to sets
>willing to be opened on, and overriding the group with your own agenda isn’t
>the best option. Groups have to be calibrated quickly and rapport has to be
>build before attention is pivoted on you. Otherwise, you’re destroying your
>REAL chance at the hook point.
>
True. But who ever said that overriding the group with your own agenda
was part of hooking the group? In fact, my favorite thing, is when you
walk up to a group, start to use your opener, and never get to finish
it because they’re already hooked and buying you drinks and throwing
one of the girls at you.
>
>I have no idea what your exact method id, but if you wing with Mystery a lot
>then I can guess you probably use his entertainment style on groups. That
>won’t always get the attention pivoted on you in a good way. You have to
>quickly calibrate the majority of the group before changing over from opener to
>attention pivoting. Otherwise, you’ll just be blindly entertaining the group
>like a mime, where all they want to do is get rid of you and that vibe can be
>felt. If, however, you calibrate the group, and determine a base of rapport
>first, you’ll know what direction to move things in and have a better chance at
>getting to a hook point. It will mean a longer sarge, and less
True. And I have the field experience and intelligence to calibrate
this. Again, I think you are carrying over the discussion from the
Mystery thread here. Please do not associate me with one person. I
have many friends in this community and my style has been influenced
by many different people. In fact, half of what I do is openers and
lines and scripts and things that I have invented myself. Ask anyone
who has seen me work. Only the structure is often (but not always)
Mystery’s. However, there is nothing in Mystery’s structure that
specifies entertaining.
>”intensity/abruptness” initially, but once you’re in the “acceptance” stage,
>you can move on from there to a SOLID hook point. In fact, if you’re both a
>good conversationalist and dynamic communicator with good PU skills, the hook
>point is actually easy from that stage of acceptance. That can be proven just
>by watching most groups communicating to each other for extended times.
>They’re all in the acceptance stage, and every now & then one of them gets that
>hook point pivoted on them. Then it shifts to another person. It’s the
>NATURAL form of communication between groups of people who’ve accepted each
>other. For guys who are not such good conversationalists, event THEIR
>opportunity will come within that group if they can at least get to the
>acceptance stage. Whether they capitalize or not is dependant on their goals
>and skills.
The hook point is NOT being the center of attention. It’s being
accepted INTO the group. This isn’t necessarily as leader; it can be
simply as a member.
>
>Maybe I gave you some good points to think about this time, now that I
>understood what you were really talking about…
Thanks, man. Hope this response made sense. And, yes, I probably
didn’t explain it well enough in the first post. Can only get online
for a little while each day here.
CPowles
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:50 am
“BTW, I WILL be at the Vegas Conference.
Not that any of you Sherlock Holmes will EVER figure out which one I am…”
Easy. You’ll be the guy trying to give Hypnotica a blow job.
Superior, where are your posts coming from? They’re totally unrelated to any of the content.
January 23rd, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Hey Superior,
Thanks for posting that — brilliant stuff! Where did you find it? (FS101?) I love reading archival stuff.
The material by Chris Powles on the hook point was absolutely BRILLIANT!! He just clarified it in such an incredible way, and it’s interesting to see that he was actually the one to identify it and even name it.
By contrast, the responses by Style (assuming that really was Style and not Formhandle) were incredibly stupid, and far more complicated and convoluted than they needed to be, especially with such a clear and clearly articulated (by Powles) concept.
It’s also ironic that Style is the one who is usually given credit for originating, and certainly popularizing, the concept of the “hook point” or “social hook point,” even though he didn’t understand it when Powles first described it. That’s laughable. It’s one of the key concepts in “The Game.”
The hook point is one of the most important points in a sarge, and may be, as Powles says, THE most important point in the whole pickup, since it determines whether you continue or break off.
Bravo, and please post more material like this, Superior. This is real value, and really makes it worth coming back here, versus the other nonsense.
PS – I’m going to copy that post and put it in my archives.
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
MikeyMike, I’ve started a thread here http://mehow.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17828#17828
January 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Treasure….
I’m very glad you enjoyed my post.
I have been collecting brilliant stuff like this since the birth of mASF. ( 2001ish)
I never collected posts. I collected ‘threads’. Entire discussions, and
have some of the finest stuff ever put out, including threads from Mystery’s
old MSN forum, which had the best and brightest debating ( in a friendly way)
various points. When things went commercial, the integrity of the discussions
went south.
What’s happened now, because of the commercialization, (which ironically was
started by Style, if anyone killed the community, it really was him, with The Game)
people automatically started to hoard their observations and tactics to themselves
because of the fear of being stolen for profit which Neil Strauss did with “The Game”.
What has happened, is no one’s theories get ‘checked’ or ‘debated’ because of the
fear of theft. It’s really sad. And because most forums now belong to the companies
that purport a ’system’ and are commercially invested in it, they’ll have no dissension,
no discussion to the contrary. Game over.
You wouldn’t believe the high level of intelligent discussion about the game I have. I consider
myself to be very lucky. The level of discussion now is at an all time low. You don’t
see threads like the one posted anymore do you.
“The hook point is one of the most important points in a sarge, and may be, as Powles says, THE most important point in the whole pickup, since it determines whether you continue or break off.”
Yes, addressing JUST the skillset of successfully hitting a Hookpoint for different types of sets
would take a week solid of very intelligent and high level instruction. Nothing a twenty year old
could tackle, they just don’t have the emotional savvy, to address all the social tones and nuances.
But, wouldn’t that be gold. Having the level of skill to be able to calibrate to a groups tone so
quickly and meld in and work from there rather than the clunky and obnoxious plough plough
plough, “blow me or blow me out” style of sarge which only leaves you the choice of who
takes your gambit, not who YOU choose.
Glad you enjoyed the posting.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:09 pm
‘What’s happened now, because of the commercialization, (which ironically was
started by Style, if anyone killed the community, it really was him, with The Game)
people automatically started to hoard their observations and tactics to themselves
because of the fear of being stolen for profit which Neil Strauss did with “The Game”.’
There’s very few tactics given away in “The Game” from other PUAs besides Mystery. If anybody has a right to scream about being robbed, it’s Mystery. I have 2002 DVD of one of his workshops, a lot of what’s out there is a direct rip-off from that DVD. I’d say after RSD split with Mystery that they stole most of his material, and Love Systems uses a ton of Mystery’s material unaccredited in their “Routines” manual.
Bigger problem is that there’s both money and ego involved in this now. Look at My Bitch and Johnny. Both spend their time online roleplaying that they’re great PUAs who have massive skill and bash anyone who asks a real question or seeks help. How productive is that for the community? Go on Masf and you’ll find the same thing. Check out the dude who posted from the Detroit lair bashing Mehow and Kevin Fang. How does that help anybody? It doesn’t, but it gives them a massive ego boost to run around puffing their chests up on the internet, and it discourages people from sharing, contributing, and helping each other. You can’t ask a question on most any seduction forum without it becoming a flame war and a discussion about who uses routines and who doesn’t, and if it’s all just inner game, and blah blah blah blah. Same regurgitated shit from a bunch of keyboard jocks that couldn’t get laid if they were in monkey house with a bag full of bananas.
Another example is pickuplabs.com They post up different openers and have guys go out and try them, then write up field reports. They tally those up to see what openers are work, what the reactions are, etc. One guy posts on there, “This is stupid, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.” That’s mostly true, but it’s also true if you’ve done this at all you know it’s easier to open with, “What’s up guys?” than “You know what I’d do with you? I’d put you in my pocket and let you peep out the top…” Again, field tested versus keyboard jocking.
I could care less about the commercialization because since David D brought internet marketing to seduction, every guru has e-mails where they give away free stuff, blog posts where they give away free stuff, market deals where they give away free stuff, etc. But with the arrival of the keyboard jock, you have to wade through six hundred pages of bullshit to find one guy who might know what he’s talking about. It’s usually the guy not pretending he’s the MPUA Guru.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Superior,
Dude, you’re a rare find — you’ve got the gift.
I’m envious that you got started so early, and that you knew what you were doing.
But really, you’re the first person I’ve encountered in the three years I’ve been in this game who really seems to know what he’s talking about, from a fundamental level.
You’re right that it would be such gold to really focus on these different phases and stages and the skills required for each. There seems to be consensus that we know what goes on in each different major segment of the courtship phase of a relationship (beyond that may be somewhat up for grabs), and that’s despite even the newer material like 10SSA.
I have to say, I’m finding more and more that, maybe I *can* get laid very quickly (happens very rarely), with something like 10SSA (and the jury’s out for me on that one), but often times I don’t really *want* to. There’s something to be said for building a romantic bond with a woman the old-fashioned way, without thinking about how many hours you’ve put in before you’re going to get into bed with her. Now, I’m not knocking casual nookie, and there are times when it just seems really sweet; but there are so many times when you meet a quality woman and you DON’T want to just jump in the sack, because you know that will ruin things.
And as you say, how much better to know *exactly* what you’re doing at a particular stage of courtship, so that YOU can choose the woman you want. As opposed to “blow me or blow me out,” where you only wind up with chicks who are basically fool’s mate material. How many of the “blow me” conclusions really last? Or do you want to last?
You’re absolutely right that if guys could really put their heads together — like they did in the old days per your thread (and you’re right, it’s not a post but a discussion) — they could break the code of each particular point of the sarge. And sure, this has been done at various stages by Mystery and others, but it’s those fine points and nuances, and as you say, the ability to calibrate so many different social contingencies, that really gives you power, through social savvy. And that power is to control your own destiny in romance. If you can hit that hook point and hit the various other points, with intelligence, you might just end up with a real girlfriend, or even a wife, and a completely different life that comes out of it.
Dude, I’ll bet you’ve got the most rocking collection of archival material. For those of us who want to find a shortcut (if there is such a thing), how would you recommend hunting this kind of stuff down? I suppose I could go back to mASF and do my research, but you know how that is. Dude, I would *pay* (reasonably) for a big honking PDF of all your collected threads.
Tell us (or me, if no one else is interested:) what you recommend. And where the freak have you been hiding? If you’ve posted on the blog before (I think you have, actually), then my bad for either not reading your posts or not seeing your acumen in them.
Congrats, and feel free to pass along more. I enjoy your writing.
PS – I’ve got to bail for now but look forward to your response.
PPS – Where else do you post? Let me know and I’ll look you up over there.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Seperate discussion about the hook point. The hook point is very easy for me to hit. It’s as simple as this: In a mixed set, ignore the girls entirely and go talk to the guys. That’s it. I can do that and ten times out of ten, hook the set in the sense of being a part of it and not having people ask things like, “So where are your friends?” or other reminders that you’ve overstayed the welcome.
That’s where keyboard jocking ends. BUT, what you run into trouble with when you do that is how group dynamics works. What do people in groups talk about? Mostly, what the people in the group did as a group. As an outsider, you get left standing around doing nothing but listening to them talk about mutual friends, mutual activities, etc. That is the point where you just stand around and either have to constantly direct attention to yourself or else just stand there. And that’s where the idea of the “30 minute set to nowhere” arose and Brad Ps “Blow me or blow me out” mentality arose.
Hitting a hook point with a group of girls is a bit harder. It’s pretty rare to find just a group of girls anyway, but they are more prone to disappearing if you stand around. They are constantly leaving to go dance, go to the bathroom, meet new friends, text or call somebody, etc. You will have to direct their attention all the time or they will abandon you.
“Now, I’m not knocking casual nookie, and there are times when it just seems really sweet; but there are so many times when you meet a quality woman and you DON’T want to just jump in the sack, because you know that will ruin things.”
I disagree completely. I’ve dated beautiful women and had them run off with their ex-boyfriend or go find a new guy. My basic rule is that anything prior to nailing a chick is an absolute waste of time because that’s how women respond to it. Anything prior to that is just whistling in the wind as far as I’m concerned.
And if there’s two things the community needs to call schenanigans on Mystery for, it’s two things. First, the idea that a friend is someone who hit attraction and comfort but missed seduction. Baloney. It’s neither attraction or comfort, it’s almost entirely qualification with a little bit of comfort. The second thing is the idea of the fool’s mate. From experience, you can lay a girl in an hour and if you get the lay, she’ll call you back or do whatever.
“For those of us who want to find a shortcut (if there is such a thing), how would you recommend hunting this kind of stuff down?”
Dude, you’ve been doing this for three years. How much material have you read? Probably tons of stuff at this point. Probably libraries and garages full of stuff. As lame and cliche’ as it is, you probably have more than enough material to last two lifetimes. Grabbing more material isn’t going to solve the problem. You need to go out, field test stuff, write up a field report, and find someone who genuinely knows what’s going on to comment on the FR and tell you where you’re screwing up.
For example, that hook point discussion. Was there one thing on there that you actually just didn’t know at all? That you really never heard of before? The discussion is good, but it’s not anything new. And at the point where you’re not hearing anything new, any further discussion is just going to give you more excuses not to more results because you’re going to keep looking for the elusive shortcut to victory. It’d be better for you to get Superior’s e-mail or something and send him your sticking points rather than wade through 1000 plus pages of old posts and discussions. (Mehow has his old stuff up on here as well if you never saw it, some pretty good discussions and contributions by Joz as well.)
January 24th, 2009 at 3:20 am
I’m a 23 year-old virgin. Come summertime I’m gonna hit up the clubs of Toronto and try all this seduction stuff out. Hopefully it works, lol.
January 24th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Mehow,
I don’t understood why your homepage (dead center) has a pic of Mystery on it. I know it is an old video of you guys together, and that’s cool, but why not get a pic of you engaging a 3 set or something? I thought it was cool 2 years ago when you may have needed to establish credibility that you could pick up girls (and that you actually knew the most popular PUA in the world), but you have moved way beyond that. I just don’t feel the need for MYSTERY to be the first thing you see on MEHOW’S site.
January 24th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Yo Mehow,
Im fucking rolling over here to CD 3 with the edge elements. lmao
” Would you still love me if I was in love wit a stripper yoooooo!” classic
Definately some shit I would say. lol
Neo
January 24th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Just got the CD’s yesterday, still listening.
So far, it is great fucking stuff!
January 24th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Glad ya’ll are enjoying the stuff. It game changing. -m
January 24th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Anthony,
Were going to be doing a huge upgrade on the site in the next few months. The mehow and mystery pic is going to go.
-m
January 25th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Treasure,
“Dude, you’re a rare find — you’ve got the gift.
I’m envious that you got started so early, and that you knew what you were doing.”
Oh, I’d like to lay claim to that statement, but I’m not going to. If there’s anything to be envious of, it would be the true comeradarie and sharing of knowledge and high level of intelligent discussion that happened back in the day. Now, we have a bunch of cynics ( for good reason, there was a lot of b.s.ing and false claims made by people raking in money ) who post on personal blogs ( so, they can’t be really challenged ) and forums that are so heavily moderated that the mere mention of another persons or companies name is blocked out. That is cultish behavior and it’s sad.
“You’re right that it would be such gold to really focus on these different phases and stages and the skills required for each. ”
That would require too much work, and too much little pay back from companies. I can see now that the game that’s taught, is ‘pretty good general overall game for 20 yr olds’…who have saturated the community because of ‘The Game’. If this issue were really tackled in depth? Well the first thing I can think of, “is study your prey”… womans magazines do it … “what kind of man is he”…we should have the same thing, is she an emotional or physical type? judging by the way she dresses and her overall vibe, is she one of the various stereotypes, goth, librarian, party girl, plain jane?? then once you have a *basic* estimation of who you might be dealing with, design a system of game for that type. A book with pictures of all these different kinds of girls for example, “this is most likely a goth, be prepared for heavier testing, good game for this type would sound like this”….then put down some dialogue with emphasis on the key points designed for the type.
If you think this is nonsense, it isn’t. I was hanging out with a good pua once, and asked him, ‘what do you think of her’ pointing to a woman on the street…and he said ‘oh no no, I’ve been with that type before….here’s how the conversation would go’…and he described it for a minute. I was laughing it seemed so accurate. If you took one of the companies opening ways, you’d get laughed at by this type. For a different type, in a different context, the opening might be perfect. Current pua’s at most say, “this of course is not something you would try at night…it’s too low key”…but, that’s about it. A product could be made where stereotyping could prove invaluable to someone who hasn’t been around the block socially….AND, there’s also the variable of who YOU are, and your style and how it may match. For example, a guy with a solid look like Steve Piccus could not pick up my sister, who’s deep cosmopolitan. Just won’t happen. She’ll like him of course, but, that’s as far as it’ll go.
Actually, “The Art of Seduction” by Robert Greene goes into this fairly deeply. That is a great piece of work. I’d recommend that book.
” but it’s those fine points and nuances, and as you say, the ability to calibrate so many different social contingencies, that really gives you power, through social savvy. ”
Calibration is the name of the higher level game. Consider who Style was. A writer( so he has a fluency with language ) an interviewer ( he wrote books about Jenna Jameson and Motley Crue so he has to probe into how these people think ) an academic, ( he reads difficult books for kicks ) so his mind is sharp, and he again learns more about character types. The one thing missing from Styles game was pure Balls to the Wall Alphaness….he admitted as much himself. He was a technician. However, I’ll take his game over the Alpha Caveman game personally, for my age and interests, I may not pull a party girl, but at this stage, that’s hardly who I’m looking for…someone more artsy farty, cool, hip…is my thing, and Styles game will pull that. Caveman game? Unlikely.
“For those of us who want to find a shortcut (if there is such a thing), how would you recommend hunting this kind of stuff down?”
Go to FS101 archives, fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi, and under ‘result format’ choose ‘threaded’,
then dates between 2000 and 2004…look for names like Toecutter, Mystery, Cpowles…be careful of Tylerdurdens responses, he was 23, but thankfully under Mysterys wing, and essentially studying him, and getting ‘checked’…but, a lot of what he wrote was nonsense, and consider his writings from the viewpoint that he was a cute, small, kid. He might get away with super cocky lines….what about Hypnotica saying the same thing to a 21 yr old artsy fartsy? Hmmm. Calibration again
“Tell us (or me, if no one else is interested:) what you recommend.”
Well, everything above of course, and really, Mehows Infield Insider series with gurus. That’s video! The tape can’t lie….and of course, the very valuable post analysis. Actually, Sinn is the one 20 yr old I do trust. He’s super. My personal favorite was the Carlos Xuma, because, it’s in the light of day, it’s a NON social environment so there’s no BT, and he deals with ’space’ a lot, that’s a cool cat, I believe so many dudes would blow it by overgaming. You can see real calibration right there. I thought that was a really good pickup, AND, the girl he picked up was no idiot, and she was in shape. Nice. Very nice.
Also, I’d highly recommend getting a camcorder and taping yourself at home doing your thing. Whether you’re a routines or non-routines guy, dress the way you would when you go out and do your thing. Watch your facial expressions, listen to your tonality, think about how you may come off to the various kinds of women out there.
So, FS101’s archives, The Art of Seduction by Greene, Mehows Infield Insiders with gurus, and tape yourself. I think this should be a pretty potent package.
Good Luck man.
January 25th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Am i the only one here who finds it incredibly ironic that people are saying CPowles is great and Style sucks? CPowles IS Style. “Chris Powles” was the pen name that Neil used before he became style. I didn’t read the entire post but unless there’s a copycat CPowles talking to Style (that’d be kind of schizo…), what you’re actually seeing is Neil posting under a pen name.
And NoMan is dead on, Treasure. But you already know this. Reading and analyzing pick up theory doesn’t get you good. Going out, making mistakes, analyzing your mistakes, and improving is what gets you good.
January 25th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Superior,
You’ve done it again, man. Brilliant, brilliant stuff. My hat’s off to you.
The idea of trying to understand female personality types is fantastic, and I don’t see that done ANYWHERE in pickup. And then identifying your own personality type and trying to calibrate that to the women you’re dealing with — awesome. (The goal, of course, being to find a girl that you really connect with, not supplicate for the purpose of getting laid.)
I have “The Art of Seduction” by Greene, buried somewhere — I’ll have to dig it out of the garage full of books and papers that NoMan thinks I have. (Actually, I *do* have a garage full of books and papers but only a fraction of 1% have anything to do with pickup.:)
I really long for those days you describe, when there were really high-level, intelligent discussions of all these things, and not just these knee-jerk admonitions to “stop thinking about pickup! get out there and sarge!” — as you can see from guys like NoMan and DJ Fuji.
Thanks so much for the pointer to the FS101 archives, and summarizing a good block of material and techniques to work with. You know, I’m in the process of changing my “avatar” basically back to what it was before I started all this. So much of the growth in this area is internal. There is NO need to be a dancing clown out there. My attitude these days is, if the chick doesn’t like me, then she can go fuck herself. Or the 20 other guys she’ll be fucking that year. And I no longer open sets randomly. I only open sets if I feel the chick has potential. Talk about eliminating flaking. A big part of flaking is opening and then #-closing or time-bridging chicks you really aren’t interested in. They can pick it up. If you and the chick REALLY have a connection, she will not flake.
Fuji: You and I go back a long way on our debate, my man. And in every fiber of my being I feel that you’re wrong — and always have been. And I felt the same way when I read NoMan’s response: he was *completely* off the mark, at least as it regards me. Although, you were the one who wrote about the importance of doing your homework, and yes, although at least half of that is field time, the other half is study. It’s not my fault if other guys don’t have a scholar’s disposition. It’s possible to be a man of action *and* a man of letters — I get that sense from Superior. I also sense he’s an older guy, above 40 certainly, so in some way we’re connecting on a similar level. If you consider that a mark of keyboard jockeys, so be it.
As for CPowles/Chris Powles — if that is indeed Style, then my bad, and Style is the brilliant one, and he deserves the credit for identifying and popularizing the idea of the hook point / social hook point. Whoever answered him with the whole thing about “pivoting” in that thread, was the idiot. And I suspect from what I saw that it was Formhandle, although I shouldn’t prejudge him, and it might have been someone else. But I do find Formhandle to be overly and unnecessarily technical, and it was pure coincidence that I dropped off his “Art of the Pickup” e-mail list only 5 minutes before reading Superior’s posted thread on the hook point. (I didn’t like the idea of checking my e-mail at work and having even a header say, “The Art of the Pickup.”)
Onward…
January 25th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
“The idea of trying to understand female personality types is fantastic, and I don’t see that done ANYWHERE in pickup. And then identifying your own personality type and trying to calibrate that to the women you’re dealing with — awesome.”
That’s because you’re not paying attention. Let me be very brief and give you some examples:
What type of women does Original Sin pick up? Goth chicks. How does he look and dress? Like someone who would pick up goth chicks.
What type of women does Mystery pick-up? Bubble-headed models that look pretty but lack much depth. What type of dress and skills does he use? Magic and an outrageous dress style that draws ADHD women’s attention.
What type of women does Brad P pick-up? Hot women who love drama and have dispositions towards drug abuse. How does he dress and act? Like a rockstar club owner who doesn’t take shit from anyone.
What type of women does Lance Mason like? Older, professional-type women. How does he dress and act? Like a good-natured but successful older man.
Getting it? All pick-up is built off the concept of your identity. Steve P is the exact same way, he likes hippie girls who are down sexually and displays a huge amount of overt sexuality in his very being and he’s comfortable with it. Mehow’s biggest transformation wasn’t because of cool lines and handlers, he probably learned all that in two months. It was from “I’m rich, sleep with me” to “dancing monkey” to “partying pope.”
Most people instinctively get this and start to recognize patterns in how they dress and act and what type of responses they get. Now, how do people get these instincts? They go out and do it. How did Superior’s friend know how the conversation with a woman was going to go? He had done it ten thousand times before and recognized right off the bat what was going to happen. He didn’t do that by reading posts online.
If you just want someone to rattle off resources to you, here you go:
“Dr. Z’s Guide to Scoring”, by Victoria Zdorak. Written by a woman, has some really bad advice in certain parts, but does contain a section on how women respond to different archetypes with interviews with Playboy Playmates, (Victoria is a playmate of the year), on what they find sexy.
“Natural Vibing”, by Swinggcat. Audio contains a discussion of archetypes a la’ Joseph Campbell’s mythology and how to be the different archetypes.
“The Art of Seduction”, by Robert Greene. Already mentioned, discusses various archetypes and how they fit into different women’s psychology. My problem with it is the book discusses and implicitly assumes you will be running into these women multiple times, rather than the modern world where you rarely run into the same beautiful women on a regular basis outside of work.
And you completely avoided my question by just saying, “It’s knee-jerk reactionism.” No dude, I wrote you a detailed post on what you were fucking up, but you didn’t listen. So I repeat my question again, “Name one thing that you had never heard of in that discussion with Style/Formhandler about the hook point.” My guess is nothing.
And if you love references, I’ll quote David DeAngelo. “Lots of guys pretend they’re interested in this stuff intellectually, but that’s bullshit.” <– Older guy who gets hot women. Style, “The least productive time I had in the community was when I used to gather around with other guys and discuss gaming women instead of actually going out and getting women.” Read “The Game”, when he talks about discussing it all the time and not doing it, how does he relate that part of his life?
If you plan on becoming a guru and teaching this stuff, then meta-theorizing about it might have some (conceivable) purpose. If not, it’s just mental masturbation or “bad faith” in Sartrean terms and you should recognize it as such rather than trying to say me, Fuji, and ten thousand other guys out there just don’t know what we’re talking about.
Same thing I said as last time, but pay attention and read what I’m writing this time. Find your specific weaknesses and sticking points, find someone who knows what they’re talking about, send them your FR and ask for advice, try out the advice and see if it works, rinse and repeat two dozen times until you have an indication if the advice was good or bad. Calibrate it.
January 25th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
I’m sorry, NoMan, I can’t disagree more. You and I are just not communicating, and that’s the best I can do.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:03 am
NoMan, your last post is dead on. Treasure and most of the guys reading this blog would do well to study it. I personally no longer have the time nor inclination to “fight the good fight” or i’d be right in there with you. But I’ve also learned that you can only lead a horse to water.
Superior has some great things to say, but they are unfortunately unsuited for most guys in the community. Picking up by archetype is fine if you have the fundamentals down. If you don’t, you’re going to be in the club studying her earrings to see if you should be opening with opener A or opener B when what you should REALLY be doing is STOP LEANING IN.
And Treasure, one of the things I teach is Absorption Efficiency, which is basically an enhanced version of that article i wrote about doing your homework back in the day (with input from BradP). One of the things that Absorption Efficiency states is that for every 3 – 4 hours you spend in field, you spend one hour studying. That means if you put in 4 hours of studying per week, you better be infield for 16 hours — or 4 nights. While it’s important to “do your homework,” it’s equally as important to get out there and actually practice what you read. And by “get out there” i don’t mean go to the bar and drink. I mean approach like a machine and maximize your time infield.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Time levels out the playing field. Wait a few years, guys — you’ll understand me (and Superior).
January 26th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Let me be more specific in addressing some of what you guys have written.
Fuji: “Reading and analyzing pick up theory doesn’t get you good. Going out, making mistakes, analyzing your mistakes, and improving is what gets you good.”
They both contribute to mastering the skillset. And for those of us who don’t have the time, or the inclination, to go out and sarge all that much, the weight is going to be on study. That’s just the way it is. There’s no “penalty” in this life for studying a lot, other than taking longer to get good if you don’t go out as much. If you enjoy reading and analyzing pickup theory, why not do it?
NoMan: “What type of women does Original Sin pick up? Goth chicks. How does he look and dress? Like someone who would pick up goth chicks.” (etc.)
This is regarding trying to understand/classify female personality types, determine your own personality type, and see if there’s the potential for a match. This isn’t about what’s on the outside, in terms of look and dress. It’s about what’s on the inside, in terms of personality. And it’s not about crafting your look or dress to appeal to, for example, a goth chick, if that’s the kind of chick you want. It’s about *understanding* how goth chicks think, and how you think, and seeing if you really have the potential to connect with one, that’s all.
NoMan (a little later): “Most people instinctively get this and start to recognize patterns in how they dress and act and what type of responses they get. Now, how do people get these instincts? They go out and do it. How did Superior’s friend know how the conversation with a woman was going to go? He had done it ten thousand times before and recognized right off the bat what was going to happen. He didn’t do that by reading posts online.”
I’m fine with the process, it’s the end product that you wind up with that troubles me. Basically, what you’ve done is to craft a personality that is really at odds with who you are deep down inside, simply for the purpose of getting positive responses from women. And then of course, you get a little success, so you stroke your ego for it, and you get into that kind of feedback loop. So you end up looking like, let’s say, a BradP pseudo-rock star, or a Mehow “partying pope,” or Mystery, with black fingernails and all the crazy peacocking get-up. Is this who you really are? Is this who these people really are? All for what? To get laid, apparently.
NoMan again: “And you completely avoided my question by just saying, “It’s knee-jerk reactionism.” No dude, I wrote you a detailed post on what you were fucking up, but you didn’t listen. So I repeat my question again, “Name one thing that you had never heard of in that discussion with Style/Formhandler about the hook point.” My guess is nothing.”
I’m not sure how to respond here, NoMan. Maybe you’re jaded, I don’t know. It’s just the excitement of seeing the original idea, seeing it expressed so well, and seeing something that you’ve personally experienced, and having it identified in the way it was. If you don’t get jazzed by that kind of thing, well, I don’t know — maybe that’s just the difference between us.
One thing I notice about you and Fuji — and you guys think very much alike — is that you seem to have no tolerance for anything other than your way of doing things. In other words, “Don’t waste your time doing anything but going out and practicing.” Or, as Fuji admonishes, you shouldn’t spend any more than one-fourth of the time reading than you spend in the field.
This is ludicrous. We all have different ways of learning, and approaching things.
Let me be more specific about who I am and what I want out of pickup.
I have chosen my lifestyle, and you (Fuji and NoMan) have chosen yours. I stand by my decision. If your lifestyle makes you happy, then I wish you all success, and I support you. If young guys choose to emulate it, that’s their decision. If they are doing so with a keen eye and care for their well-being, and they know what they’re getting themselves into, then by all means they should go for it.
I, however, am not interested in living your lifestyle. I don’t need the drama. It’s tough enough dealing with one woman at a time and juggling her emotions. I don’t need mLTRs or whatever you want to call it. I like having one girlfriend at a time.
I’m not interested in going to loud, noisy bars and clubs that are filled with drunken women and men and all their drama. I am not interested in spending 3 or 4 nights a week, for 3 or 4 hours a night (like I used to, when I first started this stuff — for 6 months straight), talking to these people.
Nowadays, if I get caught up in a “20-minute go-nowhere set,” I don’t really learn that much that I didn’t know before.
I’m not interested in “pushing my boundaries” or “getting out of my comfort zone.” I’m not interested in “getting rid of my limiting beliefs,” whatever they are. I’m not interested in “rolling with entourages.” I’m not interested in significantly altering my outer look just to fit what we think women want in terms of “sexy stereotyping.” That is, you’re not going to see me dressing like a pirate, or a biker, or a rock star, or a club owner.
I’m interested in learning about social dynamics. My goal is to meet a woman that I can ultimately settle down with, marry, and have a family with. If it doesn’t happen, so be it.
Look, you guys are the ones who are going to have to answer to yourselves when you wake up 20 years from now and wonder if anything you’re doing right now, in this area, really had any meaning. I hope that will be a pleasant wake-up call, rather than an unpleasant one.
But not everyone has to follow the platform that you’ve followed. There is nothing wrong with reading more than you sarge. There is nothing wrong with only running the occasional set, or only running the occasional daygame set, even. True, you’ll get there a lot slower, but that’s each person’s decision. I don’t say *you* have to do it *my* way. So why are you wasting your time trying to convince me to do it your way? It’s just not my cup of tea.
Fuji: “But I’ve also learned that you can only lead a horse to water.”
You can only lead a horse to *your* water. And that horse may not want to *drink* your water. Because in this case, not all water is the same.
To any young guy out there — or older guy, for that matter — I’m not saying you should ignore what Fuji and NoMan say; I’m not saying you *shouldn’t* approach pickup their way, the way they suggest. I’m saying that each man decides for himself. And that if one man decides he wants to take things in a much more casual way, then other guys should respect him for it, and not be so quick to throw hate his way, or try to take away from his joy in appreciating good writing on pickup.
So relax, guys. No one’s trying to take away your candy. Just enjoy what you’re doing, but let other people enjoy it their way too. That’s all.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:50 am
Treasure,
It sounds like you’re going full circle with your progress. Could you tell us how you’ve progressed from when you started a few years back and today? Any big milestones? I want to believe there’s hope for us old guys out there, and you’ve been in this for a while, so how is life different for you now than before you got into this? Thanks
Robin D.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:16 am
My final thoughts on the subject:
You can try to get good at martial arts by reading books about it and doing kicks in the mirror every other week as well, but you won’t get good, period. It’s not even that “it’ll just take longer.” It’ll take you SO long that you’ll probably give up after a decade or two when you don’t get results. Imagine doing curls with 8oz dumbbells because, you know, the 20 lbs dumbbells “make you uncomfortable” and put a strain on you, and you’d rather “do it your way” and just “take a little longer” to get that beach body you want.
And sure, you can tell the trainer to F- off when he recommends that you push yourself a little more. You can tell him, “Look, who are YOU to say that your way is the right way? Just because you’re a certified trainer and you’ve trained hundreds of people before me? Well everyone’s different, and *I* know what’s good for me, and it’s not doing something stupid like making me sweat or forcing me to strain myself.”
The reason i’m adamant about doing things MY way is that MY WAY WORKS. It is a proven system to get you solid results in a short amount of time. If YOUR way worked, you’d be good already. YOU would be teaching this rather than me. Why would you be convinced that YOUR system works when you have ZERO evidence that it does? What guru out there advocates staying at home and reading about pickup and “eventually” you’ll get good?
I understand that different people learn at different rates or with different styles. But the fundamentals do not change. I don’t care if you’re a visual, auditory, or kinesthetic learner. You still need to get out in field a LOT. Sitting at home reading about pickup is a stairway to heaven. It doesn’t work for ANYONE. It’s not a matter of learning styles, it’s a matter of plain and simple — what works and what does not.
What i teach isn’t to get mLTRs or even to spend your entire life in a nightclub. I’m not all that fond of clubs. Never have been. I’m even open to the idea of training entirely through day game if you can find a place where you won’t get kicked out of for opening 20 sets a day. Wherever you do it, you need a training ground to the skill set, and whether you “like it” or not shouldn’t make that much of a difference. I’m ALSO not fond of the gym. In fact, i can’t fucking STAND the gym. But guess what? I gotta go, or i’ll get fat. It doesnt matter how many “weight loss books” i read, results come from getting off my ass and onto the treadmill.
If you want to find a wife, or have a harem of mLTRs, or maintain 2 casual f-buddy relationships, it doesn’t matter. The fundamentals are the same. Ignore the fundamentals and you won’t get the results you’re looking for, no matter what they may be.
And finally, the “be yourself” argument. (”…what you’ve done is to craft a personality that is really at odds with who you are deep down inside, simply for the purpose of getting positive responses from women”) I’m honestly disappointed that after all this time, you still hold on to these archaic beliefs. But I understand. They are deeply rooted beliefs supported by a lifetime of societal conditioning.
What you still don’t understand is that you are not “crafting” a personality that isn’t yours. You are IMPROVING YOUR OWN PERSONALITY. Imagine if someone at the gym called you out on “trying to look like someone you’re not.” Imagine if he said you were not being true to yourself because you’ve never looked like a bodybuilder and now you’re trying to get buff, and that’s just NOT WHO YOU ARE. “You’re trying to be someone you’re not, man. Just be yourself.”
You’d shake your head and wonder what was wrong with him in the head. This is essentially what you are doing with your beliefs about pick up. And until you change them or reframe them in your own mind, they will always sabotage your own development. You can’t GAIN confidence because deep down, you believe that THAT’S NOT WHO YOU ARE.
“Who you are,” especially with regard to personal development or pickup, is fluid. It’s always changing. If you adhere to a strict idea of your self concept, you’ll never have the flexibility to grow and improve.
I hope some of this hits home for you or others reading this blog. I know I can be harsh, especially as a coach, but understand that it comes from a place of wanting to help people and being frustrated for them when they have been in the community for years and aren’t experiencing success.
I don’t have the time to keep up with all the comments here but if anyone has any questions, feel free to email me directly. You can probably figure out my email address. (hint: it starts with ‘djfuji’)
-DJ Fuji
January 27th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Robin (R-Bone),
I really appreciate your question.
I wrote a long response, but let me give you the short version:
* Yes, there is hope for us old guys out there. It really depends on who you are, what you want out of this (a girlfriend, a wife, hookups with 20-something HBs, etc.), and how much work, meaning time and effort, you’re willing to put into acquiring these skills
* I’m afraid DJ Fuji is right, and there’s no getting around it: You need MASSIVE amounts of field time in order to get really good at these skills — for example, what I’m basically doing these days is filtering everything I read through the 1,000 or so sets I ran when I was very active a couple of years ago, plus the few “live” sets I run these days; but community wisdom says you must run somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 sets in order to really begin calibrating what you’re doing — it may be much more than that for us older guys, since there’s so much more to “unlearn”
* My laments are really nothing more than laziness, not wanting to put in the time and effort required to get good; I’ve made a choice about lifestyle, and if I could structure my life a little differently, believe me, I would be out there at least 5 nights a week, running game in the hottest, most challenging nightclubs in town. It’s a drain, but it’s the best way to learn
* It’s helpful to build yourself a “starter” routine stack so you can work on your fundamentals; whether it matters or not in the long run, it will help you learn the skills
* Throwing yourself into the environment will make you feel young again and will open up a whole new world of possibilities; try to roll with an entourage of people in their 20’s and 30’s, guys and girls
* Try to get behind the “pink curtain” or whatever they call it, and find out what life is like for people in their 20’s, and especially what 20-something HBs are doing regarding love and sex — you’ll be amazed
* Read product but most of all, get out there and practice — there’s really no other way
I could write you reams about the milestones and the positive things I’ve learned from my time in the game — plus a couple of negatives, but really very few — but these points above pretty much sum up my attitude.
Hope that helps.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
mad props to mehow and fuji…to the other dude hatin’ this is for you “Stop the Dick Crack!” go out and approach and get a fuckin life.nuff said…sandy
January 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
My final thoughts on the subject:
Read. Read as much pickup material as you can get your hands on. Read as much or as little as you want, when you want.
Absorb it into your being as much as possible. AND, of course, go out.
Don’t read as an excuse not to go out: “Gee, I really should get out there to the clubs tonight, it’s a Friday — but I have to finish Chapter 6 of VAH, and listen to CD 5 of Mehow’s 10SSA.” That’s wrong.
Don’t read as a substitute for going out: “You know, I don’t really have to go out to the clubs — if I just read enough, and study enough, I’ll never need to practice. I’ll just absorb the material and become a pickup master.”
Read, and study, and analyze, and think about what you’re reading in light of ALL your interactions with girls, and with guys.
There is a joy in reading product about pickup that you can’t get any other way. Fuji does it. NoMan does it. Lovedrop does it. Mehow does it. Mystery does it. Sinn does it. Hypnotica does it. EVERYBODY does it. And yes, these guys go out and spend massive time in field, so their reading is directly and immediately applicable to what they do. But that doesn’t mean you can’t read something now and reach the insight 3 years from now.
I will NEVER let anyone tell me how much or how little to read, when to read, what percentage, what “efficiency rate” or formula — any of that stuff. This is a free country, and that’s what makes America great. You can read as much or as little as you want, of anything you want.
Remember that the original thing that kicked off this controversy was this: Superior posted a “hook point” thread that he found on the FS101/mASF archives, and I commented on how brilliant the whole thing was. Subsequent to that, I was accused of spending all my time reading, and no time getting out.
I say it again: Read. Read until you’re blue in the face. If you don’t get it the first time, read it again. It may take you YEARS before you gain the particular insight that comes from reading a piece of material. But it will be there, in your brain, ready for the “Aha!” experience. If you wait until AFTER you go out to read, then it will be more like a forehead-slapping experience, “Doh! Why didn’t I do that then!” This will STILL happen if you read first, because you won’t “get it” until you come back and think, “Shit! Now I remember p. 57 told me to do this, and THAT’S what I should have done with that one chick in the red dress who did blah blah blah.” But you’ll know it for next time.
There’s a structure in pickup, but there are no rules. These are the guys who drank the kool-aid for years about mid-game DHV comfort storytelling, and then one day realized that they were wrong, and came up with 10SSA, smashing the rules for mid-game. And a lot of guys knew this idea intuitively, that they could continue being cocky, or edgy, or sexy, into comfort, in order not to allow the chick to get bored. Yet they trumpeted from the high hills about how you had to stick to the program, and run comfort storytelling. And chicks got bored in droves, and PUAs kept getting flakes and losing girls. Now they say this new way is guaranteed to get you action. So it proves that even the “experts” must admit they were wrong, sometimes.
Learn to think for yourself. You MUST go out and run sets, you DO need MASSIVE field time. But as for anything else, do it the way you want to. If you want a go-get-’em coach, then Fuji’s your man. You probably won’t find a better one to drive you to success. But if you just want to take it at your own rate, whether for lifestyle issues or whatever, then do what you want, that’s all. It’s all a big fucking experiment anyway. Ten years from now we’ll all laugh at current pickup theory. Maybe not 10, maybe 20. Just like RJ is kind of a buffoon, even though he was “revolutionary” when he first broke onto the scene in 1988 (I had no idea about this stuff until a few years ago, so it was lost on me).
You get my point. Don’t let anyone tell you what to do. Let others coach you, and motivate you, and help you improve, but don’t feel obligated to follow anyone’s “rules,” just as you wouldn’t do that in other areas of life. We all have to find our own way with everything.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. But the fun journey might not be along that straight line, rather along that mazy, drunken, meandering line that still takes you from point A to point B, but really makes life worth living. You’ll never forget it. And EVERY STEP OF THE WAY will be fun — not something that you do like a “machine.”
I rest my case.
January 29th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
“There is a joy in reading product about pickup that you can’t get any other way. Fuji does it. NoMan does it. Lovedrop does it. Mehow does it. Mystery does it. Sinn does it. Hypnotica does it. EVERYBODY does it”
That’s true, reading about pick-up is fun, but there’s caveats to that if you want to get good at this. These aren’t addressed to Treasure in particular, they’re addressed to anyone that wants to get good at this.
Incidentally, DJ Fuji is 110% true to his word about being there to help. I called him to wish him a happy holiday and he was willing to stop what he was doing, (sounded like a party, pretty loud in the background), and answer questions. That’s commitment beyond any other company out there for a customer.
*First caveat*:
Analysis Paralysis. If you read too much, you learn fifty different ways to handle the same situation. You don’t need fifty good openers, you need one good opener. You don’t need fifty DHV stories or fifty good comebacks, you need one. And you don’t know what’s good and what’s not good until you’ve done it twenty times to get real feedback.
Worse though is most PUAs methods contradict each other to a degree. It’s better to learn one guy’s method to the fullest and then try it rather than reading everything out there.
Second caveat:
You can’t talk to women about reading about pick-up. Same thing as the thread “How to talk to women about pick-up” talks about, it’s a no-fly zone. The best thing to read for the actual purpose of pick-up is whatever women are reading. Find out whatever nonfiction and fiction books women are reading and read it yourself. At a coffee shop or bookstore, I guarantee you that you have a good conversation starter piece. Even if you don’t start with that conversation, it can always give you fall-backs for later conversations. A conversation about whether you should open directly and then give an SOI or give the SOI first and then follow through probably won’t lead anywhere in a conversation with most women.
The cool thing about the 10SSA product, (I haven’t heard the whole thing because of school and work, waiting til this weekend), is that it addresses different areas of your entire life that you might be weak on. If you’re weak on lifestyle choices, start reading books that help out that area. If you’re weak on conversation skills, reading books about that would be more beneficial than a PUA book. A book on weight-lifting if you’re out of shape, a book on acting if you’re working on being expressive, a book on writing, “Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting” by Robert McKee is very helpful in this regard if you want to be better at telling stories.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Nice post, NoMan. Excellent advice. Much obliged.
Btw, I went ahead and ordered your recommendation (with caveats), “Dr. Z on Scoring” (Victoria Zdrok). Said she was the only one who was ever both Playmate of the Month and Penthouse Pet of the Year. Should be interesting reading, especially the part you described.
Excellent advice to read stuff that women read, especially the nonfiction and fiction books they’re reading. I also subscribed to Cosmo for a year and although I confess I read only a fraction of what came in, the stuff was compelling, and I remember sitting and spending hours reading through one of the issues — couldn’t put it down. It’s incredible the way women think, and the things they think about.
Fuji is a standup guy, no question. He really gives far more than he gets back, and my biggest regret is that I’m not 25 because if I were, I wouldn’t want anybody else but him as my coach. If you can train with him, you’ll be much the better man for it. Within a couple of years he’ll be right up there with Sinn. And, he’s already contributed some incredibly innovative ideas to the field — he’s made his mark, and will do more so in the years to come.
January 30th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Treasure,
I see you’re in SoCal. Would you like to wing sometime? I only go out with people who don’t go out.
Nathan
February 1st, 2009 at 8:54 pm
“Wow, looks like Big Daddy really made an impact and exposed the “reactors” on this board. If youre this reactive to a guy on a forum, I can only imagine how you are in set”
That says it ALL. And still people are buying Mehows Products? Well at least I know alot of the competition out there in the field will be a bunch of clueless noobs who learned from a guy who can’t handle message board AMOGs.
MEHOW – take some lessons from Thundercat’s old blog before you become another Thundercat.
Cheers
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:07 am
Only a keyboard jock of the highest pedigree would ever make a comparison to a blog with the field.
Have you been outside before? Have you even seen a picture of the sun? The good thing about your girlfriend is you can hit the “X” button when you get tired of her. Hur hur, internet AMOGing, perfected by pimple-faced nerds on World of Warcraft forums.
In the field, you can tune a guy out. And he feels it when he fails. He’ll get red, frustrated, and he’ll walk off complaining. On a blog, you simply have to wade through hours of drama-whoring and shit disturbing to get to the meat and bones content, and that just doesn’t happen in the field. A guy who tries to AMOG gets thirty seconds to make an impression, not an entire day, and not five thousand tries. I’m more neutral about banning Johnny because even though he contributed zilch, he didn’t make long posts to shit up the thread. But VD should have been banned almost immediately. Too much scrolling to get through all that.
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:24 pm
“Only a keyboard jock of the highest pedigree would ever make a comparison to a blog with the field. Have you been outside before? Have you even seen a picture of the sun? The good thing about your girlfriend is you can hit the “X” button when you get tired of her. Hur hur, internet AMOGing, perfected by pimple-faced nerds on World of Warcraft forums.”
You said it, I didn’t. At least you’re good at something, though. So what level are you anyway?
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:36 pm
The “rubber-glue” defense, how… predictable and boring. You responded to me, which means you’re reacting to me, which means by KJ Logic you are getting AMOG’ed. Any attempt at defending yourself is just further KJ Proof that I am schooling you.
In real world logic, this is called the ‘tu quoque” fallacy. Did you stop watching porn just to type that lame response?
February 2nd, 2009 at 6:27 pm
NoMan,
You are just as guilty as reactivity as Geese. Why are you answering back? You think you’re helping the board OR changing Geese’s perspective to make him a valuable member of this board? In actuality you’re doing neither, just adding to board clutter.
You’ve had some good posts here so I’m telling this out of love, not to bring you down. Ignore the trolls, don’t feed them. If you respond to a self-hating miscreant with negativity, he grows bigger and wants to respond more and more.
Your “porn” line is no different from Geese’s “world of warcraft level” line. It’s just childish back and forth insults that don’t do anything but make it harder to find good content (including yours).
Let it go.
–Dan
P.S.– This will be my ONLY post on the thread, just saying my piece. Thank you, drive through.
February 4th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
I love it. Using your own logic, You reacted to MY post, but whatever you wanna think Noob. You can hate on me all you want but while you’re Vomiting up shit you just studied from some Noob Seduction Book, I’m out in this Real world you keep talking about pulling ass.
The difference is, while you give a shit what people think about you on an anonymous blog. I don’t give a shit. I don’t need anyone on a computer to like, or not like, or agree or not agree with me, but I will have fun pulling your talking doll string so I can listen to you say something that you read online somewhere come out of your mouth, all the while thinking to yourself that if you can’t get laid, at Least people here will think you’re cool.
This took approximately 5 minutes of my day – and while I’m typing Im eating Sausage and eggs. look at your life? How many hours are you spending on this blog posting over and over and spending even more time thinking of ways to defend your ego against “Trolls” like me?
Don’t answer me – Ask yourself that question because No matter what you write on here you and I both know you just felt the truth inside of you as you were reading this.
Good luck- That’s all I have to say.
February 20th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
” Using your own logic,”
I already posted that. Be original. Think of something original, one sentence even.
“I’m out in this Real world”
Now if you didn’t care about what people here thought of you, or me, why would you post up how you get laid in the real world? The two actions contradict, you clearly thought that it was important so you could wave a flag and say, “I’m not one of those guys that doesn’t get laid!” Here’s your cookie. And you can take a glass of milk to go with it.
“This took approximately 5 minutes of my”
Same as above, who cares how long it took you to write that? You’re still qualifying yourself to me, “Oh look, I only type for five minutes! I’m cool!” Good for you. Really, good for you and your sausage and eggs. Feel free to talk about your car, your house, your income/education level, or anything else that you don’t think is important to people on a blog.
February 20th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
NoMan,
two things
a) ignore all posts by BigDaddy … they are delted within minutes of them appearing. when big daddy posts on here a big red alarm light goes off at mehow, inc. headquarters and we know that we have to go nuke a post and ban yet anoher ip.
b) don’t become bigdaddy … the gay fram trolling was really funny the first time around. not its lame old, lame, and delted.
-m